Goodbye, floppies - San Francisco pays Hitachi $212 million to remove 5.25-inch disks from its light rail service

midian182

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In brief: The San Francisco Muni Metro's Automatic Train Control System (ATCS), one of the few remaining major systems still using floppy disks, is dropping the archaic technology as part of a massive upgrade. The SF transportation agency's board has agreed to a $212 million deal with Hitachi Rail to overhaul the service and remove the 5.25-inch floppy disks it's been using since 1998.

San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency (SFMTA) was the first agency in the US to adopt the floppy-based automatic train control system in 1998. It was supposed to be in place for 20 to 25 years. It entered its 26th year of service in 2024.

In April, SFMTA director Jeffrey Tumlin said the increasing risk of the disks suffering data degradation meant that at some point there will be "a catastrophic failure."

Thankfully for San Franciscans who use the city's metro service, SFMTA's board has approved a deal with Hitachi Rail, the external division of Japanese tech giant Hitachi, that will bring the system into the modern era.

SFMTA spokesperson Michael Roccaforte explained to Ars Technica in April how the current ATCS system works. "When a train enters the subway, its onboard computer connects to the train control system to run the train in automatic mode, where the trains drive themselves while the operators supervise. When they exit the subway, they disconnect from the ATCS and return to manual operation on the street."

The $212 million agreement with the firm is part of a $700 million major overhaul. This includes replacing the aging loop cable system used for sending data across the servers and trains. SFMTA spokesperson Michael Roccaforte said this upgrade is more pressing than replacing the floppies as the cables are fragile and have less bandwidth than an old AOL dial-up modem.

The SFMTA plans for Hitachi to replace the loop cables by 2028 with a comms system that uses Wi-Fi and cellular signals for tracking trains, assuming the SFMTA's board of supervisors approves it.

Also read: Once-Iconic Tech Products That Are Now a Fading Memory

Replacement of the cables, floppies, and other aging technology is expected to take place in 2027 or 2028, followed by an on-street technology installation phase. The estimated completion date for the entire system overhaul is 2033 or 2034.

Floppy disks, usually of the 3.5-inch variety, have refused to die despite Sony making the last new one in 2011. Japan only removed them from all government operations in June, and they're still used in some businesses and by enthusiasts.

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Hmmm... You may certainly be tech info we can trust, but maybe not train info. The floppies are used on San Francisco's light rail, just as you said. Only the photo used shows BART - Bay Area Rapid Transit - which is a separate subway system that looks not that much like the light rail (third rail power, rather than overhead wires, much wider cars and track gauge, subway style cars incapable of running on the streets, tiny operator window in front, etc.). The ba logo on the from makes it certain - the light rail is Muni. Wikipedia has photos of the actual Muni Metro.

Yes, it does run through some tunnels, but the difference between these is not exactly subtle, despite the official name Muni Metro with the "worm" logo. It is something like the difference between 3 1/2" floppies and Zip disks from the old days; similar but incompatible.
 
The title

"Goodbye, floppies - San Francisco pays Hitachi $212 million to remove 5.25-inch disks from its light rail service"

is highly misleading, as

"The SF transportation agency's board has agreed to a $212 million deal with Hitachi Rail to overhaul the
service and remove the 5.25-inch floppy disks it's been using since 1998."

It is as much correct as stating that the author is paid his monthly wage for putting the dot at the end of the last sentence of this article.
 
The missile silos that house our nuclear ICBMs were moved off their 8" floppy disks only 5 years ago (2019), running on '70s computer technology for 50 years.
 
I like old tech that becomes increasingly rare. The downsides are that it can degrade and hardly anyone can fix it after so long but in some ways it hardens the system against modern day cyber attacks.

Hitachi are probably putting in a modern networked system or whatever and it'll be toast the second a thirteen year old is bored at their library terminal.
 
I like old tech that becomes increasingly rare. The downsides are that it can degrade and hardly anyone can fix it after so long but in some ways it hardens the system against modern day cyber attacks.

Hitachi are probably putting in a modern networked system or whatever and it'll be toast the second a thirteen year old is bored at their library terminal.

They just need another medium for system updates rather than the floppy disks. Air gapping is the best security. Anyone that desires to hack it has to gather information on the system and be physically there to do it. Most hacking that occurs happens from a safe distance if you have extra hurdles to the process then it could act as a deterrent.
 
They just need another medium for system updates rather than the floppy disks. Air gapping is the best security. Anyone that desires to hack it has to gather information on the system and be physically there to do it. Most hacking that occurs happens from a safe distance if you have extra hurdles to the process then it could act as a deterrent.

An air gapped system is only secure if access to the system is strictly controlled, no cell phones, USB drives, no monitors facing CCV cameras, server room RF and EMF shielded so no transmissions or interceptions are possible outside the room, no hard drive activity lights visible to cameras and more, as all of these have been found to be able to transmit information beyond the air gap to outside collections. An infected USB drive is how Iran's secret Natanz nuclear processing plant was infected with Stuxnet.

Optical signals from monitors screens imperceptible to users, Acoustic noise\vibration from windows, lights and direct LOS laser transmission, EMF frequency changes of power supplies and cables, RF signals from cameras and cell phones and Thermal changes are able to be used to extract data from air gapped systems.


 
The title

"Goodbye, floppies - San Francisco pays Hitachi $212 million to remove 5.25-inch disks from its light rail service"

is highly misleading, as

"The SF transportation agency's board has agreed to a $212 million deal with Hitachi Rail to overhaul the
service and remove the 5.25-inch floppy disks it's been using since 1998."

It is as much correct as stating that the author is paid his monthly wage for putting the dot at the end of the last sentence of this article.

I think the title is fine. If the entire concern is floppy degradation, they could have designed some rather simple hardware that emulates the floppy drives/disks. Instead... they *chose* to overhaul the system over a single fixable issue.
 
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